Terry Real: The Crushing Effects of Patriarchy On Men and Women Today
Bruce is a student of Terry’s work. Given his other materials, this is slightly expanded from a 2018 Forbes interview by Kathy Caprino HERE.
Cabrino: In witnessing what is going on in our world today — including an explosion of reports of sexual abuse and misconduct by men of power, this week’s conviction of Larry Nassar, former team doctor for the American gymnastics team, and the #MeToo movement in full force — it’s leaving millions of men and women scratching their heads as to how we as a civilized society could have possibly allowed (and perpetuated) such a proliferation of sexual abuse and misuse of power.
While countless people are talking about it, one group of voices seems to be is unusually quiet — and that’s the voice of men.
In full disclosure, I’m a feminist and am in full support of women who are coming forward courageously today to share their harrowing stories. we know this bravery has been made more possible by the incredibly strong women risking so much to be the first to speak out.
from where I sit as one in the media, we would benefit from hearing more men’s voices in the national conversation about what’s happening around us. Millions are longing for a way forward to support all of us evolve — women and men alike — to understand more deeply and concretely what’s at the heart of the situation we find ourselves in today, and to arrive at new habits and Best Practices.
One question rarely addressed fully, in my mind, is this one. What does Patriarchy — the social model we’re under today in the U.S. — do to both men and women creating such an exaggerated gender divide? what can bridge this chasm?
To learn more, I caught up with renowned couple’s therapist and bestselling author Terry Real. In my Finding Brave podcast interview with Terry this week, we discuss issues around gender, power, intimacy, emotionality and vulnerability — and what he sees are the crushing effects of Patriarchy for men and women.
A lecturer for over twenty years, Terry is a member of the senior faculty at the Family Institute of Cambridge and Director of the Gender Relations program at the Meadows Institute in Arizona. His work shares a rigorous yet accessible approach, and speaks to both men and women powerfully. His ideas on men’s issues and on couple’s therapy have been celebrated in venues from Good Morning America, The Today Show and 20/20, to Oprah and The New York Times.
Terry has been called “the most innovative voice since Robert Bly thinking about and addressing men and their relationship education in the world today.”
Here’s what he shares:
Kathy Caprino: Terry, can you explain what you’ve found in your work with thousands of men about what it means to learn to be a “man” in today’s society?
Terry Real: We all live under the social habit of Patriarchy. I deliberately use this old-fashioned word. Until the current climate, if you said the word “feminist” people would head for the door. If you said “Patriarchy” people would start to snooze. Yet now male-led mainstream culture has become so reactionary, so blatantly repressive, people are picking up the sword of feminism again.
We all live under Patriarchy, a rigid dichotomy of gender roles. We all know what the dichotomy is. Traditionally, men are supposed to be strong and feel independent, unemotional, logical and confident. Women are supposed to be expressive, nurturant, weak and dependent. I say these traditional gender don’t make anybody happy; and, they don’t make for intimacy. They work against healthy intimacy.
I work with men and women all day long in both heterosexual relationships and same-sex relationships. One thing I’ve seen is in order to lead men and women into happiness and intimacy — with others — and a really good relationship inside your skin as well — we have to lead men and women out of Patriarchy. Why? Because the old rules were not built for intimacy and mutual appreciation.
The old rules were built for stabilizing your short life. Before 1900, a large fraction of Earth’s population died by age 30. The old rules were designed for survival, for producing enuf children, who could do enuf labor to grow enuf food, to keep the tribe alive. For Intimacy? This was way beyond the imagination of all but the writers, poets and troubadours The rules of Patriarchy were about “Buckle up and do your job.”
After WW II, especially in the 1970s we began to want — women began to want — more intimacy. Intimacy is a good thing. I stand up for intimacy. I stand up for not being in a relationship where one or both are suffering more than they are benefitting. The old rules of Patriarchy are not going to get us there. We need to re-configure who we are both as men and as women. Frankly, we need a new vision. We need more leadership and public modeling of what this looks like.
What I’ve seen is the essence of masculinity is contempt for the feminine. Misogyny and masculinity are flip sides of the same coin. What it means to be a “man” today is to NOT be a girl. Not be feminine. Contempt for the feminine is part of Patriarchal culture. In the West, this has been true for over 100 years. This is why our value system is so one-sided and out of balance.
Caprino: Why is some women today are in staunch favor of Patriarchy and the condemnation of the feminine, when this model is seemingly against their best interests?
Real: Here’s why. Patriarchy does not exist only in men. The force of Patriarchy is the social water we all swim in and we’re the fish. Women can be just as patriarchal as men by holding those same values and biases.
Caprino: I see, but why would women want to turn against themselves?
Real: I speak about the three rings and I’ve covered the first two. The first I call the “great divide,” where both men and women split themselves in half — the masculine and the feminine.
The second I call the “dance of contempt.” The two halves, masculine and feminine, are not held equally but the masculine half is exulted and the feminine is de-valued.
The essential relationship between masculine and feminine is contempt. I know it’s ugly. It gets uglier. The third ring I call the “core collusion.” The core collusion is whoever inhabits the “feminine side of the equation” — whether it’s a child to a parent, or a hostage to a kidnapper — has a profound instinct to protect whoever is on the masculine side of the equation even while being hurt by the person.
Why does this exist? Because we all learn this as very young children: “Even tho mommy and daddy are causing me to suffer, I have take care of them; because without them I die.” This is true of traumatized children. It’s true of people of color trying to manage up to the ruling race or class oppressing them. It’s true of women to men. I believe this is one of the unspoken, most profound forces in human psychology and human history. The perpetrator has power of life and death over me, so must be protected.
That’s why the #MeToo movement is so revolutionary, because it is really going up against this core pillar of Patriarchy: You dare not speak truth to power.
Once you stop protecting and start grabbing the political power and allow yourself to be the position in which you’re going to be perhaps punished for speaking up (which may be in the form of a collective action as the #MeToo movement is) there will be great power in this.
Caprino: What about all the men we know who have admitted they are scanning their own histories asking “Have I done anything I’m going to get in trouble for?” Is it really hard to understand if you’ve crossed the line into abusive behavior? I mean, why are they confused?
Real: What we’re needing to go towards is Full Respect Living across the board. Healthy adults scan their thoughts and actions before speaking or acting yo ask themself, “Does this drop below the line of respect?” How many people doing this consistently? Very, very few. It’s not even talked about. We have to talk about more, make it a norm to shoot for.
If it drops below the line of respect, don’t say it; don’t do it. If you are on the receiving end, if it drops below the line of respect, don’t put up with it. You live your life in a respectful, non-violent way — non-violent between you and others, non-violent between your ears. It’s both.
When I counsel men, I advise them before you speak to a woman, stop and think about what it’s going feel like to them. I call this “remedial empathy.” Stop and think about what this is going to feel like and ask yourself, “Is this respectful or is it disrespectful?” If you’re not clear, ask.
Yes, this is confusing for men and women because this should be taught in colleges, high schools and middle schools. That happy day is a long ways off. It’s also not a black and white issue or one easy to figure out where the line is except to say this:
If there is a clear power imbalance between the two where one stands to lose or gain based on the good will of the other, then you really cannot talk about a consensual relationship.
I think we’re waking up to this reality. It’s a wake-up Aha! now emerging. I think it’s not a black and white, slam dunk, easy issue.
Caprino: So what do we do, Terry? Where do we go from here?
Real: The vision I work with, my plumb line when I’m working with boys and girls and men and women — is wholeness. I want to undo this “halving” process. I want girls and women to be strong and sexy and feminine and confident and kick ass and inviting and all of the above.
I want men and boys to be strong and big-hearted and vulnerable and sensitive and confident and aware and heartfelt all at the same time. What we need are whole people. Feminism gets this concept in relation to girls and women. We’re both old enough to remember when the feminist revolution broke out, people were ringing their hands about girls and going, “Oh if they get confident en masse they’re going to lose their femininity.” Cultural Creatives don’t worry much about this anymore; the culture has been changed.
Yet people still do worry about boys and men. If boys and men get in touch with their “feminine side,” oh my gosh, they’re going to lose their spines and other parts of their anatomy and it’s going to be awful.
But you know what? We can be whole.
Here’s my model. There weren’t a lot of good things coming out of 9/11 but here’s one that did. You saw those early responders, those big, burly firemen and policemen. You saw the tough guy like Rudy Giuliani sit on the stairs and cry like a baby. You saw those men comfort each other and hold each other in each other’s arms.
At the same time, they were risking their lives in a catastrophe. These were not wimps. I’m a New Yorker, I want to be there if you call one of these guys a sissy. Let me tell you something — they had big hearts.
So, I want strong, big-hearted men. Strong, big-hearted, sensitive, responsible men. We can do it. These are not contradictory traits. You just have to know which is which and at what time.
Caprino: This “halving” we all experience, what can you offer as three effective steps we all can take today to allow for more wholeness, in ourselves and others?
Real: Here are three steps:
1. Be brave, have courage, step outside your comfort zones,
Do something new. Speak truth to power. Become intensively aware of a contempt of vulnerability in both sexes. Beware of the code to shun our vulnerability. Why? We humans connect through our vulnerabilities, not through invulnerability.
I’ve talked to men about what I call the “Icarus myth:” you have to leave connection and leave your family in order to go off and fly into the heavens to be worthy of connection. It’s ridiculous. The guy who goes off and works 80 hours a week to be worthy of love when all his wife and kids want is for him to come home so they can be with him. So, be brave and break the mold.
2. Get allies
Don’t try and do this all by yourself. Make this a collective movement. Get support.
3. Insist on wholeness
Insist on relationality in your boys, insist on strength in your girls, and insist on wholeness in your relationship with each other. Insist on wholeness inside yourself. You can be a man and cry. You can be a woman and speak up. We can step outside the frame of Patriarchy. We don’t have to be determined by it.
For more information, visit www.terryreal.com.
For more from Kathy Caprino, listen to her podcast Finding Brave and get support to live more bravely.
